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 Post subject: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tricks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
So I bought an 08 Tribeca 3.6 Specifically because I knew I could tune it. I want to map out my needs at the top for the car so that readers can match what they are trying to do vs what im doing and take that into perspective when they use this guide.

1) This is my wife's Tribeca - She moved from a rotted 03 Toyota 4runner v8. So she is expecting Torque, fast, peppy.
2) This is my commuter car when I go into the city. I drive a Stick Dodge Diesel Truck... It's not the best in small parking garages... So I needed decent MPG on the tribeca.
3) This can't be slow - I'm used to fast things... I'm not going to settle for anything less (wife's car or not)
4) Make things correct for engine life, Not specifically for MAX MPG.
5) Fix all the things that Subaru Screwed up... to be blunt.

Next thing I want to map out is that this is my rom, I tune cars on the side for many people, I live in Massachusetts, its 80-95degrees F in the summer (Now) and cold as heck in the winter. I run 93 octane only and the car ONLY has a K&N Insert for mods (right now). By taking the roms (stock or tuned) from this thread, you should have an idea of what you're doing, I have put in a (safe) rom as well which pulls out 2 degrees timing up top incase your somewhere else in the country. But if you run this rom, it's just like anything else, Log/log/log. You can even PM me the logs and I'll take a look.

These are the things i will be talking about below

Throttle Mapping
MAF Tuning
Per Cylinder Myth Debunking
Knock per cylinder
Per Cylinder Fueling Changes
MPG Tuning
Timing Tables - To use Fine Learning or not
Fueling - Safe and tuned
Radiator Fan Setups and numbers
EGR Deletes (for offroad purposes)
Misc Changes that made a difference


Throttle Mapping - One of my biggest issues with the Tribeca when I got it, even from the test drive, was how punky and jumpy the throttle map was. Screen Shot below was before. What I did was remake the whole map, im pretty happy with it. Gives my wife the pep she was looking for but also provides smooth return on foot input.
Attachment:
stock throttle.png
stock throttle.png [ 194.16 KiB | Viewed 5459 times ]

After you will see that it looks more like a turbo car, but is mapped out specifically around doing 70-80MPH on the highway. Likes doing that a lot. But around town its great too. you can copy this out of either of my roms and it works great.
Attachment:
my thottle.png
my thottle.png [ 197.19 KiB | Viewed 5459 times ]


MAF Tuning - Although I know Target AFR is just an adder to the Base PW and not an actual target. With an NA car it normally lines up pretty well in the openloop map to what I'm targeting. The Tribeca though... not so much. I had to remap the MAF tuning quite a bit. you will see before and after here. It hits pretty close to 12.0 under WOT all the time with these settings and the OL maps from Primary Open Loop Fueling Table. That is my current target until I can stick it on a dyno. To my surprise the cruise was almost spot on. This WOT Fueling requires you to do some more changes below in the per cylinder fueling to get it right.

Attachment:
MAF Scaling.png
MAF Scaling.png [ 63.22 KiB | Viewed 5459 times ]


Per Cylinder Myth Debunked - So if your looking at the Per Cylinder (Timing or Injector PW Comp) it says A,B,C,D,E,F which is funny because I only have Cylinders 1,2,3,4,5,6. In all the maps it says USE AT YOUR OWN RISK WE HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IT IS. But there is/was an easy way to figure this out. What I did was go into each Cylinder for Per Injector PW Comp and added 44% to one cylinder at a time, looked for Roughness on a cylinder and that was that. 1-6 maps out to A-F accordingly. In addition to that Cylinders 1/3/5 are followed under AF1 and Cylinders 2/4/6 are under AF2. More to come later on why this is important.

Knock Per Cylinder / Knock in General - So there are two things we are concerned about when tuning Subaru's. 1) How well does the knock sensor hear knock on the opposite side of the motor. 2) are we doing fueling on a bank (side of the motor) Specifically to make it knock sooner. These two things still blow my mind.. Why we make the side that blows up from fueling and oiling issues ping more quickly so we can pull timing overall... Anyways that's another thread. What I found on the Tribeca kinda surprised me, so it's gonna surprise you. Lets bullet out what we know.
1) Tribeca has 6 Cylinders
2) 1/3/5 is one side and follows AF1
3) 2/4/6 is on the other side and follows AF2
4) Tribeca has two knock sensors - So we expect knock to be caught Better!
5) Tribeca runs 1/3/5 Leaner then 2/4/6

Now lets talk about the findings. During WOT Pulls i was off by .75AFR on one bank then the other. AF1 was always leaner. Now common feedback was who cares i stuff my wideband in the pipe and it shows me an AFR i target that. When I was doing my Per Cylinder tests noted above, I found that 1/3/5 did not get shown (Exactly) as roughness 1/3/5. The motor had a hard time in general hearing any knock on Cylinder 5 in fact... I knew it was misfiring cause the car was shaking and it knew something was wrong but was un able to define it for me... That scared me... because that bank runs lean.. 2/4/6 on the other hand BAM roughness on each cylinder perfect... Is that just mine... or does anyone else have that problem? Who knows. More to come on Per Cylinder Comp PW on how to fix this Next.


Per Cylinder Fueling Changes - From my findings in the last section and a lot of logging while at cruise and under WOT. I figured out that Cylinders 1/3/5 needed 4% ish PW from 1.5ms to 7ms then a ramped solution up to 6.25% up top to get them even. Pictures are below. What this did was make it so under Cruise AF1 and AF2 were the same in compensation. what I noticed stock was one would say +15 the other would say -15 or +5 -5... This fixed it to within .5% of each other. But under WOT was where I wanted this and wouldn't lean out my mix till I had it right.



MPG Tuning - This is something i consider myself pretty good at. I've tuned a lot of NA standards, NA CVTs, Couple 3.6's. All with Great success. For the Tribeca I've been pushing different ideas around and it seems to net me 22-23mpg all the time. 22 if I step on it a bit too much and 23+ if I let the wife drive the car not bad since it gets 16-17 normally. Things I've been working on are extending out the timing correctly to prevent too many shifts. Not too much or it has an opposite effect. Introducing intake AVCS when needed, but not always.... Remember the stock tune is made for emissions... it might get good MPG too... but your melting your motor slowly... That and not over requesting Throttle position makes a big difference. the more air it see's the more fuel it gets... smoother is better. (You can take my safe tune for this)


Timing Tables To use Fine Learning or not - On the CVT's and people running mixed fuel, 87-93 randomly. I normally introduce a very aggressive Fine Learning scheme when the IAM isn't 1 (Which is when it works). I typically tune it for 93, but in those certain cases I make sure if it's not 93 that the car adds timing when needed. that nets a difference on a 2.5i CVT of 25mpg on 89 to 35mpg on 93. why it's so significant... not sure... but the people in my area are happy. This Tribeca map is not setup like that. I'm not going to put trash gas in my Tribeca to help you (The Jerk in me). but in the case you're running 91 or something. I'll work with you if you want to get a better rom. As for Timing overall. My Tribeca seems to like it. Timing and tuning around timing is simple. Cruise it seemed to like around 39 degrees. And under WOT I did the following steps.
1) Turned off AVCS (intake and Exhaust)
2) Tuned it that way to see what the baseline was for timing it liked. The Tribeca either pulls timing on purpose at shift, on shift, or a mix... but it took a good amount. once i get close i take out a degree.
3) I introduce Intake AVCS till the motor seems to be past peak power
4) I overlap Exhaust AVCS and ramp it to redline.

Attachment:
myavcs.png
myavcs.png [ 161.67 KiB | Viewed 5459 times ]


This gives great feedback, great feel, and makes it go pretty well. This map I am including is not complete, but it's good enough I've been driving on it for about 1500 miles... meaning if I want it perfect it needs to go on the dyno.

Fueling - Safe and Tuned - What I personally did was set it rich while I was figuring everything out. Target 11-11.3 on your front o2 readings. Try not to target richer as then when you're doing your MAF adjustments (in 5% increments) to get it to hit your OL Target, you're not showing 11 on the front af but it's really 10... If that still makes sense... then we are making some progress. Get it running consistently the numbers your asking... Fix the per Cylinder PW Comp and then get the timing correct. Last thing I do is lean it out. Leaned mine to 12 for these tunes but long term will probably target 12.5. Your car, your preference.

Radiator Fan Setups and Numbers - First thing I did when I got the car was rip out the thermostat put in a 170F, cut the little nipple off... changed fluids in the Radiator and everything else for that matter... The guy before me was using something cheaper then Wal-Mart brand for everything... mixed some purple radiator fluid with some other color... who knows... Then what I do is get it warm and see how low I can set the radiator fan settings where it's not on during highway or low cruise... but if I sit in traffic, it will turn on. What I found was that setting them in order of 194.0-197.0 worked awesome. It drops the target from 204... to 194... which promotes cooler everything, cooler oil, less consumption... and overall you will run a better map by doing this. Now If you follow my Nasioc Thread on introducing an upper Hose Thermostat, then you could do a 160 thermostat and run the fans at 171 all day every day... no problem... helps a lot... I've run this setup in 40 degrees. and 102 degrees... summer was hot. I trust it. See Screen shots.

Attachment:
Coolant Fans.png
Coolant Fans.png [ 47.86 KiB | Viewed 5459 times ]


EGR Deletes - My rom has access to the EGR table. I turned it off, I also unplugged the stupid thing under the manifold. Tight fit... You need to turn off a few CEL's like the Flow one and such... but that keeps you from running EGR all the time... It's scary how much it's on... and how much it must pollute your pulls and long term driving Timing... Screen shot. 54 = 100% open from what we can find.
Misc Changes that Make a difference - Make sure if you're taking parts of my rom... just to take the whole thing... There are a bunch of setting changes in OL/CL, Feedback, Fine Learning, intake/exhaust AVCS, per cylinder timing comp and so on. What makes a good Rom is all the changes together... not taking pieces of mine and pieces of yours then complaining that it doesn't work right.

I hope this thread is found informational, as mentioned there are 3 roms. Stock, my current rom, minus some timing so if you're running 91 you can start there. If this helps a couple people it was worth writing up. I enjoy helping so please PM me if you need something explained better!


Attachments:
DZ1E402B.xml [29.87 KiB]
Downloaded 255 times
RR_DZ1E103B_DZ1E401B.xml [654.54 KiB]
Downloaded 224 times
32BITBASE.xml [750.81 KiB]
Downloaded 221 times
DZ1E401B.xml [29.41 KiB]
Downloaded 282 times
DZ1E103B.xml [2.6 KiB]
Downloaded 221 times
tribeca SAFE.bin.zip [382.13 KiB]
Downloaded 230 times
tribeca 9-15-2016.bin.zip [382.14 KiB]
Downloaded 257 times
read_image.bin.zip [382.84 KiB]
Downloaded 224 times

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


Last edited by Bamofo on Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - Worth writing up?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:55 am
Posts: 2520
Location: NI
all info is good info i say!

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Good luck and may the logs be ever in your favour!


MY06 EDM STi Type UK Spec D
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Panel Filter/2.5" Decat/Prodrive Springs/Leather Seats


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
Bump for editing the original thread with information

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:43 am 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
Can you please share ROM definition file you used for tuning?


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:27 am 
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Experienced

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
alesv wrote:
Can you please share ROM definition file you used for tuning?


Edited initial thread with them. you need all three.

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:26 am 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
Bamofo wrote:
Edited initial thread with them. you need all three


Thank you very much.

Also I checked my logs for two different Tribecas (MY 08 and 09, both 3.6 engine) in order to verify if one bank runs leaner than other during WOT. I did not found any hard evidence - average difference between banks is about 0.01 AFR (although sometimes in isolated cases it is more significant).


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
alesv wrote:
Bamofo wrote:
Edited initial thread with them. you need all three


Thank you very much.

Also I checked my logs for two different Tribecas (MY 08 and 09, both 3.6 engine) in order to verify if one bank runs leaner than other during WOT. I did not found any hard evidence - average difference between banks is about 0.01 AFR (although sometimes in isolated cases it is more significant).



Interesting. Then i must have a bad injector? are you using the same rom as I am?

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:38 pm 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
Both Tribecas have DZ1E401B ROM.


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:49 pm 
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Experienced

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
alesv wrote:
Both Tribecas have DZ1E401B ROM.



Interesting i cant get that rom to flash to my tribeca.

Anyways ill start randomly replacing parts till the delta goes away :) But if you have something off like mine, the rom works great.

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:59 pm 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
I converted definitions to RomRaider format - for me it is simpler to compare images with RomRaider. Hope it will help someone too.


Attachments:
RR_DZ1E103B_DZ1E401B.xml [654.54 KiB]
Downloaded 182 times
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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:27 pm 
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Experienced

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 424
alesv wrote:
I converted definitions to RomRaider format - for me it is simpler to compare images with RomRaider. Hope it will help someone too.



Added to original thread. THANKS!!!

_________________
--2008 3.6 Tribeca --
--2007 STI limited Panda--
--Twinscroll GT40R 2.35L--


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:53 pm 
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Newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:27 pm
Posts: 23
Bamofo, thanks for sharing with us your tips and tricks.
I have a question about EGR delete - you wrote in your first post for EGR table in your ROM, which you have access to, but in any of your posted definitions there is no such a thing like defined EGR table, so maybe this is a secret thing or just i misunderstood something?

Another question - maybe disparity in fuel trims between two sides is caused by EGR and your changes like EGR delete? I have similar observation on different, but close enough car (Legacy 2004 with EZ30) about EGR and his influence on fueling in general, but my ECU is 7055 and unfortunately i can not find in my ROM anything close to Per Injector Pulse Width Compensation, so i'm trying to find a way to compensate or minimise EGR influence after his deletion ...


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:36 pm 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
srg123 wrote:
but in any of your posted definitions there is no such a thing like defined EGR table


I found I uploaded wrong def file for RR without EGR tables. I'm correcting this now.


Attachments:
File comment: EGR included
RR_DZ1E103B_DZ1E401B.xml [658.02 KiB]
Downloaded 160 times
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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:27 pm
Posts: 23
alesv, HUGE thanks!
Finally i have some kind of starting point for searching in my rom for something close to these tables.


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 Post subject: Re: Tribeca Tuning - From Start to Finish - Gotchas and Tric
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:55 pm 
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RomRaider Donator

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 59
One more tip - you can use ScoobyRom software, it hepls a lot.


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