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 Post subject: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both banks)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
So I've had my H6 Spec B for a couple of months now and every now and then the engine doesn't produce the power it should. This seems to happen at random and (so far) only after a long(ish) drives.

Because of it's random nature it's quite hard to reproduce. Yesterday I had the whole day to myself so I took it out for a ride and had my laptop hooked up with RomRaider Logger. Unfortunately, I wasn't logging the appropriate solenoid valve (should've been logging the 'Intake OCV Duty Left / Right', but I was logging 'Oil Switching Solenoid Valve Duty Left / Right' instead) - but regardless, it's obvious that when the engine is down on power, the valve timing advance doesn't work... Whether this is a cause or a symptom, I'm not quite sure.

Here's the graph:
Attachment:
avcs-graph.png


I tried to replicate the issue this morning, but it just didn't happen. I did, however, log 'Intake OCV Duty' and I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at the attached log (zipped) and tell me if the OCV duty vs. VVT Advance Angle looks OK?

What could be causing both banks VVT to fail / not work at the same time? What else could I log to shed more light on it?

And thank's to all who read my rambling. :)


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:55 pm 
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Regarding what to log...

I'd remove the AF Correction and AF Learning parameters - AF Correction is almost never useful because it is so noisy, and AF Learning is only useful if you're adjusting MAF scaling or some other aspect of air-fuel mixture.

Atmospheric pressure is also not useful, unless you're investigating a problem that varies with altitude. Otherwise, it doesn't change enough to be interesting for most purposes. It might be interesting for boost control, but even then, it's probably better to just look at it once before you log (unless you have reason to think that it's going to change during the log).

Instead, add Load (in grams per revolution) and the target AVCS angle parameters (I forgot what they're called but I'm sure they exist). The target angle parameter is useful because it tells you whether the actual angle parameter is high, low, or on target. In the current log, the actual angles are going up and down a lot, but that's probably perfectly normal. The load parameter will help determine whether the target is what it should be (load and RPM should be enough to look up the angle in the AVCS table).

In the beginning of the log, the right AVCS angle was slower to change than the left AVCS angle, however the ECU apparently detected this and added about 4% to the right duty cycle after a little while. And later on, the right side started responding faster than the left side (see the log around 18:00 and 18:38). That might indicate an issue with the solenoid or the AVCS mechanism, but I wouldn't panic just yet. I haven't looked at enough AVCS data to know whether this is typical or not. If you haven't had any check-engine-light issues, then it's probably not unusual.

During the first 3-4 minutes of the log, RPM was mostly in the 1500-2000 range, which appear to be right on the edge of where the ECU uses AVCS. Below 1250, AVCS is completely disabled. The AVCS angle and duty values move around from zero to ~20 and back quite often, but that's probably normal - AVCS is disabled at low RPM and at low load in most tunes that I've seen.

It also moves between 0 and 20 later on when RPM is in the 2000-2500 range, but without knowing the target AVCS angles, it's impossible to say whether that's due to a problem or just due to the shape of the AVCS tables.

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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:31 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Moscow, Russia
The primary problem is your oil system.
At the beginning of the log you have air inside AVCS system.
Under high oil temperature ( 95C+ coolant) you most probably get AVCS not working properly due to low oil pressure.
Lockers will keep VVT at 0 deg under low oil pressure condition.

Did you add something into oil ?
Did you clean oil system ?
Did you clean injectors installed on the engine ?
What is mileage got after the last oil drain and what about oil level ?

All these operations may leave some cleaning liquid inside the oil system and you may have a thinner oil currently.

The second problem is that you have a faulty left oil control valve. There is no cleaning procedure capable to revive this valve.
You need a new one.

Another variant is that the ecu will disable both OCV after long problem with your left OCV evident in you log.


Last edited by Sasha_A80 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:23 pm
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Sasha_A80 wrote:
The primary problem is your oil system.
At the beginning of the log your have air inside AVCS system.

...

The second problem is that you have a faulty left oil control valve.


What did you see in the log that led you to these conclusions?

There's definitely a difference between the left and right valves, especially in the beginning, but I just assumed that the problem was with the right one because it responded slower. That's purely a guess though.

Is it normal to have some air in the AVCS control system after the car sits for a little while?

_________________
2005 Legacy GT w/ ATP 3076, IWG, MBC, BCS, BC 272, LC, FFS, OMG
Please don't send me tuning questions via PM - use the forums instead. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:31 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Moscow, Russia
VVT not responding to OCV duty changes shows that control oil pressure is not sufficient:

- to unlock cams at the beginning of the log
- to change VVT angle of the left cam later after the throttle closes\load drops

The first is due to slow oil pressure rising after start, the second is due to valve wearing and usually becomes evident at overheated engine\sharp accelerator playing.

Anyway oil system should be inspected for oil pressure values
-after start
-cold idling
-warm idling
-high revving

It is not a good idea to have a drained oil system \ low oil pressure after start.
If there is a long oil drain interval or oil dilution I would strongly recommend to change oil and a filter first of all.


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
Sasha_A80 wrote:
The primary problem is your oil system.
Did you add something into oil ?
Did you clean oil system ?
Did you clean injectors installed on the engine ?
What is mileage got after the last oil drain and what about oil level ?

When I got the car a couple of months ago I changed the oil and after that none of the above was done. Since the oil change I did about 7000km, the oil I used is Fuchs Titan Pro S 5W-30 and oil level is right in the middle of the dipstick.

Sasha_A80 wrote:
VVT not responding to OCV duty changes shows that control oil pressure is not sufficient:
It is not a good idea to have a drained oil system \ low oil pressure after start.
If there is a long oil drain interval or oil dilution I would strongly recommend to change oil and a filter first of all.

Well, I guess I'll be changing the oil next. Should I go with 10W-40 maybe?

NSFW wrote:
Instead, add Load (in grams per revolution) and the target AVCS angle parameters (I forgot what they're called but I'm sure they exist). The target angle parameter is useful because it tells you whether the actual angle parameter is high, low, or on target. In the current log, the actual angles are going up and down a lot, but that's probably perfectly normal. The load parameter will help determine whether the target is what it should be (load and RPM should be enough to look up the angle in the AVCS table).

I don't think I can log AVCS target values - maybe the log definition for my car isn't complete... :(

What's the best / simplest way to add oil pressure sensor / gauge to the EZ30?


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:31 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Moscow, Russia
There is no too much room for oil pressure sensor to be installed instead of an alarm oil pressure gauge installed under the alternator.
Most probably some kind of piping is to be implemented.

Choose a sensor with 8-10 bar max.
May be you need another brand oil filter.
5W30 oil is quite applicable.


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
I think the EZ30 has the oil pressure switch on the bottom side near the oil filter:
Attachment:
EZ30-oil-pressure-switch.jpg

Maybe I can use some adapter to mount both the sensor and the OEM switch there.

Anyway - today I went for another logging session and while I forgot to log engine speed, I did catch the moment where the problem starts (record ~2680):
Attachment:
avcs-graph2.png


It seems that from that point the both OCV duty's are stuck at 9.41 % and while left bank VVT angle drops to zero, the right bank angle is 'hanging' at about 1-2°.

At record ~4500 I put the car in neutral and let off the throttle to coast, but that didn't make a difference. However, at record ~6908 I stopped the car and let it idle for a second (while stopped) and the right bank angle advance dropped to 0° and it all started working again (I tried that because two days ago I had a feeling that this somehow helps, but I wasn't quite sure):

Attachment:
avcs-graph3.png


I guess I'll replace both AVCS valves, both banjo bolts with filters and use an OEM oil filter (now I have [url=https://catalog.mahle-aftermarket.com/eu/product.xhtml?eid=5810#dividerMahle OC 500[/url]).

I'll try to find some way to be able to log oil pressure as I'm not too keen on installing an actual gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:31 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Moscow, Russia
There are too few parameters in the log.
It is impossible to understand what is the cause for AVCS switching off.

Start with oil and filter change.
Verify oil pressure at different coolant temperature and RPMs, no logging is needed.

Make new logs.
Both OCV's are to be changed according to your current logs.


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:23 pm
Posts: 2479
Can you post your ROM?

_________________
2005 Legacy GT w/ ATP 3076, IWG, MBC, BCS, BC 272, LC, FFS, OMG
Please don't send me tuning questions via PM - use the forums instead. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
Sasha_A80 wrote:
There are too few parameters in the log.
It is impossible to understand what is the cause for AVCS switching off.

Start with oil and filter change.
Verify oil pressure at different coolant temperature and RPMs, no logging is needed.

Make new logs.
Both OCV's are to be changed according to your current logs.

I attached a text file with a list of all parameters RomRaider Logger presents when connected to my ECU through OpenPort 2.0.

What other parameters would help?


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
NSFW wrote:
Can you post your ROM?

I posted my ROM in the ECU and Logger Definitions section.


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:23 pm
Posts: 2479
I looked, but didn't see it. Please post a link.

_________________
2005 Legacy GT w/ ATP 3076, IWG, MBC, BCS, BC 272, LC, FFS, OMG
Please don't send me tuning questions via PM - use the forums instead. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: EZ30 AVCS issue - intermittently not advancing (both ban
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am
Posts: 27
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
NSFW wrote:
I looked, but didn't see it. Please post a link.

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13885


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