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 Post subject: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:55 pm 
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I think that I have a leak. A few months ago I re-gasketed my whole exhaust because I knew they were leaking. New gaskets on heads/headers, header/up, turbo to up and down, midpipe. And I even went back and torqued all the nuts and bolts back down after a few heat cycles. I wasn't able to get to the bolt on the turbo near the down pipe. I'll double check it next time it's on the lift.

Anyway here's my problem. I'm running testes map with the Knock Correction Advance(KCA) dropped down to like 5.

I'm getting knock in a few places, so I pulled timing in those few areas. Today there were two knock events so it pulled 2.11 then 4 something. I didn't get a Learning View today but normally the IAM doesn't drop.
I haven't nailed down exactly why it is knocking but I think its because my AF Correction #1 drops way low every now and then.

These logs are the same file. I logged my drive home from work. On the Excel one I highlighted some the the troubling spots.
Let me know what you think...

mods

2002 WRX Sedan
3in TBE exhaust – cat welded in downpipe, Borla muffler
wrapped upipe
silicone inlet
silicone afta MAF
COBB SF (short ram)
PNP TD04
Deatchswerks fuel pump - DW200 / 255LPH
DIY aluminum radiator shroud
DIY aluminum air box

Stock:
everything esle


Attachments:
romraiderlog_20130318_172724.xlsx [182.8 KiB]
Downloaded 33 times
romraiderlog_20130318_172724.csv [186.55 KiB]
Downloaded 31 times

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Last edited by pete25r on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AF correction
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:08 pm 
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ok so still knocking, I have some fresh logs below.
It knocked bad enough one day to drop my IAM to 8.

the knock that I'm seeing is occurring just after opening the throttle from idle.
it's not at a certain RPM range or throttle angle. In the log below its in the 1300-2400 RPM range and throttle angle between 10-25.

I'm not sure where to start.


Attachments:
pete25r(testes tweak).hex [160 KiB]
Downloaded 13 times
romraiderlog_20130406_141446.csv [311.07 KiB]
Downloaded 20 times

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 Post subject: Re: AF correction
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:00 am
Posts: 955
Location: Stockholm, Sweden. Sea level.
pete25r wrote:
Anyway here's my problem. I'm running testes map


You may have nailed it right there.

;)
Patrick

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2007 EDM FXT 4EAT
STS TD06SL2/60-1 billet, STI TMIC, Cobb catted bellmouth downpipe, Cobb 3" exhaust, ID1000, Walbro 255, GS EBCS, STI sway bars and Brembos.
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 Post subject: Re: AF correction
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:02 pm 
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So any suggestions for a stage 2-ish map?

My IAM dropped to 4. I'm in WTF mode. My engine can't be running THAT bad. I only drove it hard once since I noticed the IAM dropped, had to pull out and merge with traffic.

If I pull up learning view all the fuel trims are looking ok (in the +/-5 range). The Fine Learning Knock Correction Table is all zeros though. In my logs I usually don't see Feedback Knock Correction, but now I am.

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Ok so update on what's going down...

Had knock on map I was running. Broke my tactrix cable just after finding knock. Bought a new one(ouch) and flashed the previous map back on my ECU.

Seems to be running a lot better now. Only had two logs with knock. The knock I was seeing was occurring just after I got on the throttle, in the 5-20% range. So looking at the logs throttle angle was 0 for a while (red light?) and as the throttle opened up knock would occur.

This knock was even happening with my somewhat tried and true map. So I bumped up my throttle tip in enrichment for the lower cells. I bumped up cells .4 thru 24.1 by .2 ms. Hopefully that'll be enough to squash any knock due to lean tip in. Gently logging to see if I did any good with that.

I was thinking tip in because its just after the throttle opens I see the knock and somewhat recently I swapped my TD04 for a rebuilt PNP(really just smoothed and port matched). The PNP turbo might be allowing slightly more air to flow, I know it's not spooling just after opening the throttle but it still could flow better over a non-PNP.

I'll post my logs and map later for any curious folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:01 am 
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I need to get some logs up here...

anyway I did some more logging and think I know the physical location of the route that I'm knocking on. There's a traffic light just before a hill. That would explain why some logs have knock some no knock, I don't get EVERY red light.

It seems I'm knocking when going from 0 throttle to 13-20% its random at what point it picks up. My A/F learning usually jumps to neg 12 to neg 25, it jumps right at or just after the knock event. It could fall under resolution issues, I'm logging 10-12 parameters. I narrow it down and see if I can see it better.

What do you guys think? Am I on the right track?

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:15 pm
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Location: Jamaica
Drop in you stock air box and see if the problem goes away.


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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:50 pm 
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don't have stock airbox. When I bought the car(2 years ago) the Cobb SF was on there. It was working ok.
The most recent engine mod was the PNPed TD04 and up-pipe wrap. I had crappy tires for a while but a pothole told me I needed new tires so I finally listened... Anyway I have new tires now and can push my car a little. Not pushing it right now of course because of the knock.

I've finally got access to the logs that are worth sharing. They were stuck on my netbook. Stupid thumb drive....

Below is an excel sheet where I copy pasted the knock events from a few logs. There should be enough data there to see what I'm talking about up top.


Attachments:
knock highlights.xlsx [15.71 KiB]
Downloaded 22 times

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Here's the current map and a log to go with it.

Map notes:
WG duty cycle zero-ed out to make sure I wasn't over boosting.

CL/OL Delay is short but not zero-ed out.

CL Base Fueling Target richened slightly to account for possible extra ethanol in gas. Went from 14.47 to 14.27. This is before compensations of course.

First knock event is seen at 93696 ms and second at 172594.



Please have a look and help me choose what to look at next. This is driving me crazy. I'm about to start from scratch.


Attachments:
pete25r-14APR.hex [160 KiB]
Downloaded 16 times
romraiderlog_20130414_170643.csv [154.41 KiB]
Downloaded 14 times

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:15 pm
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Location: Jamaica
i notice a few times at move off the fuel target afr of 10


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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:06 am 
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crazymoet wrote:
i notice a few times at move off the fuel target afr of 10


ok, so I'm guessing I'm too rich in those areas?

intially I thought I was flowing too much air and needed to bump up tip-in. I bumped up tip-in just a smidge and logged my merry way. Then I got FBKC on decel. So since then I've been pulling timing in knock areas.

I put the tip-in back to stock after a few iterations of log and pull timing. The tip-in changes I made didn't really effect much, just made my AFR corrections go crazy.

So this pesky knock beast that lives in my engine can still be seen just after coming into throttle after a peroid of idling. A few logs so that between 12% and 17% after idling the knock beast wakes up. Sometimes its in just one excel cell sometimes it like 7.
I've also noticed that timing drops for no apparent reason just before the knock event. I've seen it as low as 2.5 or 6. There is no FBKC or FLKC going on at the time, timing just drops. AFR Corrections aren't pegged either.
Base timing in that area is in the 15-20 range with KCA in the 1.76 to 3.? range.

Anyone have any ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:10 pm 
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I cut and paste from some different logs to show you guys the low timing I'm seeing.

My current map is attached too.

What do you guys think is going on?


Attachments:
pete25r-log-APR13.xlsx [11.89 KiB]
Downloaded 17 times
pete25r_btim4_.hex [160 KiB]
Downloaded 13 times

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:39 pm
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Hi,

I could be way off here, but as you've not had many suggestions.

Are you sure its real knock as opposed to false knock?

I have heard that the knock sensor can pick up other noises from other engine components, from your log its hard to tell how many knock events are occuring as you are not logging the knock sum. I suspect its only a single event each time as the fbkc reduces as expected.

Are you sure that the waste gate arm preload is correct given that you have swapped out your turbo?

When this is too loose the wg can make a noise similar to knock which the sensor could get confused about.

Worth a check as it wont cost you anything. Also check heatshields etc for cracks.


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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:52 pm 
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ukwrx, thanks for the ideas.

it's possible that it's false knock. it usually is at low load, well the knock that hasn't gone away after I pulled timing.

on my ECU/defs I don't have a knock some. would be handy. IAM isn't dropping like it did at first, that was with another map though.

engine noise? its possible. I did check the wastegate before and after installing turbo, its snug. I also gave all my underhood a good look around. Couldn't find any loose heatshields or anything else that might rattle. I am missing a bolt on a bracket that attaches the uppipe to the block. But when I saw it I removed the bracket, there was one on each side of uppipe. I didn't have replacement for the missing bolt and didn't want it rattling.

Yah know, I might have a rattle. Part of my intake is rubbing in the bottom of my hood. It does have silicone maf and inlet connecting it but I guess it could be rattling enough. I'll go find a way to keep it from bumping/rubbing the hood.

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 Post subject: Re: Knock on accel from zero throttle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:01 pm 
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I think what's happening when I'm seeing FBKC when first opening the throttle is some type of clutch noise.

I payed careful attention to how I was releasing the clutch and one time from a stop it felt like it bumped the pressure plate or whatever. It didn't feel smooth as it normally does. I think I was moving the clutch pedal too quick or something.
Later in an empty parking lot I looked at FBKC on my netbook while taking off from a stop. It took a couple of tries but I did get some FBKC on one of the take offs. And no I wasn't launching, just starting from a stop with a purpose.

What do you guys think? could this explain the FBKC in my logs above?

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