my LC-1 horror story

Justin 05 STi · **Joined:** Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:51 pm **Posts:** 284

I've had nothing but problems with my LC-1. Worked for about 3 days and I took a whopping 3 logs with it.

I messed with it off and on for months. I recently decided to give up and try to return it. The RMA process has been a nightmare in and of itself.

I finally posted my sad story on their forum. If you'd like to read the gory details, check it out:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... php?t=8810

Quote:

Has anybody ever successfully obtained an RMA for their LC-1? I am trying to with almost zero results.

I have had nothing but problems with it. After installing it with a panel meter display on one of the analog outputs, it worked fine for 3 days, then started acting flaky. The display would jump around between an accurate reading and very high readings. Then back to normal for a short bit.

I updated the firmware but still got the same results. I unhooked the panel meter and used the display in Logworks. Same results. I re-did all soldered connections, then ripped it completely out and put battery clamps on the wires. Same results. I tried a friend's used sensor, and a brand new Bosch 17014 from O'Rielly. You guessed it, same results.

This saga has been going on since I purchased the LC-1 from Innovate last July. I finally decided I should give up on the LC-1 and try to do something else, and sent an RMA request via the Innovate website. It is a cruel joke to ask for a "specific description" and limit it to 300 characters or less. So I sent a brief description in the RMA form, and a truly detailed description through the general contact form. In it I asked for the cost to be applied towards an old LM-1 (or the new LM-2 would be fine). I also stated if crediting towards something different were not possible, to at least let me know what the cost to repair the LC-1 would be.

On May 29th Cort Charles sent me an email asking how long I'd owned the LC-1 and who I'd purchased it from. He also informed me the LM-1's were no longer made. I repeated the information for him, and asked again for a credit towards an LM product or a quote to repair the LC-1. No response.

On June 3rd I sent Cort another email asking for a status of the RMA number. On June 4th he replied asking if I'd already sent it in (don't I need an RMA number??). I replied saying not yet. No response.

Today I sent another email asking for a status, with no reply. When I got home from work, I called the telephone number listed on the contact page (roughly 5:20 central time). I dialed by name and after ringing forever, I got Cort's voicemail. I left him one. Then I called back and went through the main option for tech support. It rang forever and finally rolled me back to the main menu.

This entire experience has been beyond ridiculous. I am to the point of throwing it away and using this as lesson learned, to never deal with this company again.

Can anybody at Innovate please help me?

Has anybody else had the same amount of troubles with their LC-1? Anybody wire it up and have zero problems with it?

Lance Lucas · **Joined:** Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:10 pm **Posts:** 239

Wish I could post up to the contrary, but my first LC-1 was DOA as well. Innovate's support sucked; fortunately my vendor was able to exchange it. The next one has lived well over a year (as well as the companion XD-16).

Guy on the corner · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:49 pm

Zero problems with the LC-1 here. I've only had it a few months but after clearing up some initial user errors it's been great.

Dweeb · **Joined:** Tue May 30, 2006 11:29 pm **Posts:** 46

i got a new LM-1, about 3 months ago, and problems also.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... hp?p=50579

yup, i got to agree, the support sucks big time. I sent 2 emails - no response, called 3 times and left messages - no call-back, then finally I got a live person. And he told me it is ok the way it is, reading the wrong "free air value"
when i asked about my emails and voicemails, his response was: and I am quoting him here
"oh ya... I saw them"
Like WTF !! so... they received them , read them, and then disregarded them.... last time i buy something from them !!

gabedude · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:06 am

I have two LC1's. I think when they first came out, they were not designed very well. They had 3 or 4 different grounds that needed to be grounded to the same ground point. My last LC1 I bought has simply two grounds and one power wire. I still route the two grounds to the same ground point (a TT harness, lol), it even works with a cigarette lighter attachment. Obviously the early ones had major issues (not uncommon in newly released products). The new ones are great. Support can also suck at a company where they know they have problems with an older unit and demand is high with return on investment being low. It is just a part of the electronics industry. Innovate is getting better though with the newer product launches, They are investing in R&D which is good and eventually will get the support side down well.

FWIW, my first LC1 sensor died after about 3 months of use. I sourced the same Bosch VW part for 45 bucks with lifetime warranty from a local auto parts store.

Kaboom · **Joined:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:50 am **Posts:** 13

Having problems with a new product going bad or having bugs in the initial launch is one thing, and can be excused to a point. As that can solved by either updated drivers or firmware, or replaced with a newer better design.
However, BAD customer support is not acceptable under any circumstances! Mind you that is just my opinion.
I rather have a good product with a great support, then a great product and bad support and not be able to get anything but headache from the manufacture when I call for support.

gabedude · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:25 pm

Innovate is a fairly new and small company. The support side of things will come. They have to make money. They have one of the cheapest and best (IMHO) WBO2 out their (mainly because of the re-calibrate function). The LC1 was a redesign on a packaged and tested LM1 with new circuits, etc. The funny thing is that my newer LC1 has a bug where I have to reset the type of gas with LmProgrammer once the unit does not have power for a good bit. My perm installed older unit in my car does not have this issue even after not having power for 4 months. I never have to reset it to gasoline. Probably just some firmware bug.

But yeah, they should have a good and easy RMA process. They can easily setup a test rig to test the circuits. The engineers are probably more worried about advancing the product to make it even more marketable. They are trying to integrate with many EM systems and even open source and are short on staff. This is good. They will get the RMA process down. They need money and with the new DB gauges and the popularity of the LC1, they will get there. Of course, more negative feedback about their RMA process would definitely help. It is quite simple to setup an RMa system where they just ship you a refurb and you sen in your new one. However, this costs extra overhead where the price on a 149 dollar unit will not cover the cost of the employees who handle RMAs.

Yeah, just eating 149 dollars is a PITA, but where are you going to find a WBO2 controller for that much?

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcar ... 262&page=2

I have seen O2 sensors from auto parts stores cost more than that.

Jon [in CT] · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:05 pm

I have grave concerns about Innovate Motorsports. Their software engineering guru, Joe Fitzpatrick (AKA jfitzpat) hasn't posted in their forums since Mar 3, 2008. His last post was:

Quote:

There is a new LW3 release pending with OT-1 support. Sorry, Beta2 came out before the OT-1.

-jjf

There has been no subsequent Logworks release, so far, beyond Beta2. Even more alarming is that their hardware engineering guru who patented the LM-1, Klaus Allmendinger (AKA klatinn), hasn't posted there since Nov 15, 2007.

It feels as if the company's top engineering stars have left and it's now operating on autopilot.

Freon · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:16 pm

Bummer to hear about your problems.

The technology they're pushing is really great with the ability to chain a bunch of devices with various capabilities. The products they have really meet the needs of tuning cars more than I've seen with other solutions. There are plenty of widebands, but none that self-integrate for logging purposes. There are plenty of logger devices that log lots of devices, but they're extremely expensive and you gotta buy a big unit all at once.

I'm still using an LM-1 I bought almost 5 years ago. The solder joints did fail on the power plug and analog out plugs, and I had to repair it (recently, well out of warranty and I don't really mind), but otherwise I've been very happy. I'm still planning on eventually getting their TC-4 and a full set of thermocouples.

Over Actor · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:04 pm

Hey Justin as I said on kcsub. I have an LC1 but I havent really used it, I used an lm1 on the dyno and a plx on the move.

jaimejrivera · **Joined:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:10 am **Posts:** 16

I have a LC-1... no problems at all except for the O2 sensor that I have replaced twice. Probably is located to close to the turbo and taking extreme heat.

Guy on the corner · **Posted:** Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:42 pm

jaimejrivera wrote:

I have a LC-1... no problems at all except for the O2 sensor that I have replaced twice. Probably is located to close to the turbo and taking extreme heat.

About how long did your sensors last? What happens when the sensor goes bad (no data or bad data or...)? I've got mine about 4-5" from the turbo. I know I am cooking it slowly but would like to know the timeframe and symptoms of demise.

LGT-3-6 · **Joined:** Wed May 24, 2006 8:11 pm **Posts:** 187

I'm on my 3rd LC-1, actually I got it back from RMA last month but I haven't re-installed it. It's just a giant pain and I don't look forward to seeing it fail again. I'm sure for another $5-10 in cogs they could have made it reliable, it's missing basic protections on the input leads, for starters.

gabedude · **Posted:** Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:49 pm

Guy on the corner wrote:

jaimejrivera wrote:

I have a LC-1... no problems at all except for the O2 sensor that I have replaced twice. Probably is located to close to the turbo and taking extreme heat.

About how long did your sensors last? What happens when the sensor goes bad (no data or bad data or...)? I've got mine about 4-5" from the turbo. I know I am cooking it slowly but would like to know the timeframe and symptoms of demise.

The sensor can be had from any auto parts store for like 50 bucks. When you purchase from most auto parts stores, the sensor comes with a lifetime warranty. I have had no problems with either LC1 (besides a sensor going out), but I ground each ground point to the same wire (TT harness) and get the power from the same source. On my homemade portable unit, I used a cigarette lighter adapter from radio shack and wired it up. Works like a charm.

I wouldn't say that the lack of the "initial" engineers posting (even if they have been let go) means anything. The company is coming out with more products and the design has changed in the last year. This means that someone is working on it. We recently lost our main firmware / RTOS guy here, but there is another guy with a ton more experience working as the lead now. I worked with him before. It is pretty easy to pick up someone else's project. I have had to do it. Often it leads to a better product in the end as you have a fresh mind on it and that fresh mind can often think of things the other person did not think of to improve the design. They should work on their RMA process though. It should be simply that they send you a refurb unit and you return your old one.

Justin 05 STi · **Joined:** Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:51 pm **Posts:** 284

Update:

Still no RMA number to be had, but Cort has instructed me to send it in for repair or replacement.

Credit towards an LM product is not an option. I really don't understand why, but whatever. I will probably buy a non-Innovate product and sell the LC-1 if / when I get it back.

So the question now becomes... TXS, AEM, or? I've heard good things about PLX and Zeitronix too, but they aren't supported by RomRaider (yet).

RomRaider

my LC-1 horror story

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